Sanjeev, you did mention that macro is not looking so exciting, but you are focusing more bottom-up. But what we saw in TA in the last quarter with respect to orders getting postponed from customers and execution, does that phenomena concern you in terms of the likely execution for this year that we missed it from double-digit growth to single-digit or flattish execution this year or bottom we have fair amount of confidence that double-digit revenues growth trend should be in tact?
Thank you, Renu. So in our view the Process Automation business represents largely the project business, which is about 10% of our total portfolio. And they do depend upon how the customers feel confident in the process industries as well as in the large government infrastructure projects, say, in the oil and gas and the other power generation area. So there, many projects which were on pipeline are still on the pipeline, but because of the uncertainties which are floating across the world and also domestically, certain customers held back the decisions. And we do believe those projects are still in the pipeline and those decisions will improve. So, that's what it is. So, it's very difficult. We have just finished the first quarter briefing. So, it's difficult to say what happens at end of the year. But as far as our base business is concerned, that continues to be robust. But it is to be acknowledged that as per the large projects are concerned in the market, they are there, but they are sluggish in decision making, at least in the first quarter. And we will see how the 2nd Quarter goes for us and 3rd Quarter plays out. And then that's how we will be able to comment to you more specifically when we have the commentary for 2nd Quarter and 3rd Quarter.
Sir, industrial, the process automation business is showing a weakness in terms of negative growth for the last three quarters. So, when do you think we will be able to come back on the growth path in this segment?
Thank you, Mahesh. So, as far as when we talk about ABB present in this market with 18 divisions and 23 market segments, so we are the true reflection of what the market is doing. So, what we do is, when the market and the customers that we are trying to serve, they are ready for decisions, they show up in our books. So as I said, process automation is 10% of our large projects of the process automation is 10% of our portfolio. And largely we have fast-moving industrial goods. So that base order continues to perform well, because the country is expanding and is absorbing those products quite effectively. But when it comes to large projects, they are cyclic in nature, and it all depends upon how the private CAPEX and the government CAPEX is forming in the marketplace. So, I would say indirectly if we watch these market segments and see the CAPEX formation there and the government CAPEX release, that should have a direct correlation with when the recovery in the process automation businesses will come.
Sir, last question from my end. Last two quarters the order inflow has been soft overall. We had a single-digit growth this quarter and previously we had negative growth. So going into the next 2-3 quarters, will the momentum remain the same?
So we are coming on back of last 5 years wherein we grew CAGR 22% in last 5 years and our revenues grew 20.5% on back of economy growing 6% to 6.5%. So, we have had a fairly strong run over a period of time. And then what happens is that once you have a strong run, just like in the markets, you have a time correction, and you also have a price correction. But in this case, you can say that certain market segments take a breather and then the next cycle of investment comes. And that's where it reflects in it. I believe 2024 has been quite eventful. And 2025, as you can imagine, right from new government coming in U.S. and also now the recent weak event, so there are a lot of events which are playing out in the minds of our customers. And that reflects into our books at the moment. But I believe the moment this uncertainty is cleared out, we believe the underlying of Indian economy as well as Indian spend capacity is quite high and t it will pick up. Whether it happens in the running quarter or it happens in the next quarter is difficult to say, but we are very optimistic going forward that we will have reasonable rates of growth in this market for us.
My first question is on the motor side. As per the annual report, the penetration of IE3 and IE4 was 54%. What was this number for CY '23? And what will the market share in IE3 and IE4 motors?
So, Mohit, actually it is a very good question. I am also interested in those numbers, but today Sanjeev Arora is not here. He is travelling. He is responsible for that business. We may not be able to give that answer immediately plus we typically don't go to that granularity of information because it's very sensitive to business.
Sir, any color on the order's number for CY '23. CY '23 versus CY '24, that 54%, how does this compare?
As Sanjeev was mentioning, we don't give those numbers. Otherwise, then we will have a different set of calls. (Sanjeev Sharma added) Or if you can next time, you can bring as a base reference our competitors' numbers and say, hey, how they compare against them, then perhaps we can bring some granularity.
Sir, how does the acquisition of Siemens Gamesa renewables electronics portfolio help ABB India? What are the revenues for this business in India in CY '24? And how does this expand the portfolio?
Okay, that is a global acquisition, what has happened. In India, we have not great footprint about it. So, we are buying only some inventories and capital equipment as what we informed the stock exchange in the last quarter. So, they are very much, they are players in the wind and renewable players. We need to find out how it works out going forward. So, not much of relevance for India at least as what at the moment, it becomes a product part of the global portfolio, and the global team will guide our local teams how relevancy of that portfolio in the market becomes. We should allow it sometime before we can be more specific about it.
And my second question is with respect to capital allocation policy. So, given that you have cash balance of Rs. 57 billion and sometime back you have also mentioned that you are looking forward to inorganic opportunities in the domestic market, but nothing has fructified in last two years. So, any color here how you want to utilize this capital going forward?
So, we are expanding our capacities organically to meet the market demand. So that's how some of the balances are. We have increased our dividends. So that's how our shareholders are benefiting out of our cash balances. And as we speak, there are quite a few inorganic opportunities in our crosshairs. But then it takes two to tango. So, as and when we are able to secure them, we will announce it to you. But yes, definitely there is a plan, both organic rewarding shareholders and plus inorganic opportunity and there is no rush for us. We will wait for the right opportunities at the right price so that that creates more value for our portfolio as well as value for our customers. But definitely it is on the plan.
I just have one question, sir. You know, the outlook for CY '25, particularly on base orders, can you throw some light on some high growth segments, particularly propulsion, semi-acid propulsions, and renewable low voltage and motion orders? Do you think there is a risk of this year being 10% or less growth in orders?
You are talking of base orders, right, if I am not wrong? (Amit: Yes, sir.) So, it is very difficult to predict. Let me be very honest. Because given the Amban situation, lot of moving parts at this point of time, which one would never have expected, so naturally, so then at this point of time, Amit, we are not able to even say that whether it will grow at 10% or less than 10% is what we see, right? But our intent has always been to be aiming for double-digit growth, right, and then be in line with what the market could sort of decide as a result of these particular macro factors which is beyond our control, right. So, that's how I see to be honest, Amit.
The second question is just pulling few inputs from the annual report, within the product segment, others as a category in the last two years have grown very smartly from Rs. 1,400 crores to Rs. 2,400 crores plus revenues, our fastest CAGR. So, can you share some insights in terms of what type of product portfolios become a part of others here and what is the kind of localization efforts which ABB has put in to improve the local manufacturing footprint of this fastest growing segment for us?
So, if you have been Renu, you have been hearing our commentary for last, almost at least in my history, about 38 quarters. And so we have maintained that we play the market from three or four angles. So, one angle is we continue to expand our portfolio, and then we continue to localize it so that it becomes more attractive price point to have voice to the customers. And as the economy is growing, it continues to kind of become more sophisticated. So, more and more ABB sophisticated products keep coming and we can now localize and spread it in the market. So, that's one effect which is playing out in this year as well. And other part is our geographical penetration because India's growth is moving into Tier-2, Tier-3 series. And Sridhar mentioned that that expansion is causing expansion of our portfolio intake from the market. And last but not the least, the economy continues to expand and the market segments which were moderate in size early or small size, they have become substantial in size now as we go forward. So, these are the few things which cater to it. But you are absolutely right. Especially in the electrification and motion, we have expanded our portfolio, and that portfolio is playing out in favor for us. Yes. And definitely, as you mentioned localization of the product after we have tested the product in the market that there is a good demand and acceptance. Then we go ahead and we manufacture, localize and we expand on top of it.
Any particular products to call out or nothing specific here?
In the case of the motors, if you can see that we have expanded our portfolio there. You can see that in the case of MOLM, we have a good intake of export orders there and that has contributed and that's on the back of localization. Likewise in MODP, which is our drives product, there again we have expanded our portfolio and also have localized. And same thing goes for the traction side. Again, we have expanded our portfolio for mass transit, locomotives, electric, bus, truck, and they are playing out in our field. Now just to give you some granularity on the electrification side, I have Kiran Dutt with us. Maybe he can paint some color around it. (Kiran Dutt added) Thank you, Sanjeev. Thank you, Renu. that's a very good question in terms of expansion of portfolios. On the electrification side, what we have done is there are two parts of it. One in terms of energy management solutions, where we started expanding our portfolio there, so which is very, very important for customers in terms of finding out in what way the buildings are efficient or the industries are efficient. So that's one part of the portfolio which we expanded. It is also related with the digital portfolio, what we have expanded as well. The second part of the story is the launch of LIORA, which was also explained during the presentation. LIORA is the modular switch range, which is for commercial buildings and the residential buildings. This portfolio has really expanded a lot, and we are seeing a lot of traction in terms of orders and revenues coming in during Quarter 1. (Sanjeev added) In the case of ELDS, our distribution solutions, if you recall that we had inaugurated a expansion of our facilities in Nashik 1.5, 2 years back, and that production of GIS facility is on. And that really has created quite a large base for us to serve the market, wherein the market has become sophisticated because they require small footprint switchgear, which can go into the basement of buildings or it can be small urban area because the land is something which is more premium in those areas.
Sir, just wanted to have a color on this chart of high, moderate, low, what we give every quarter. So, how do we read into this? When we see quarter-on-quarter changes in couple of sectors moving to moderate, what is the view we take? Is it a quarterly view we take or yearly view we take on the sector and then we move that segment to moderate from the low?
So, that's an interesting question. So, one is that this particular picture is both for our internal as well as external consumption. Internally, what we do is we make sure that all our sales team and businesses are laser focused on all these segments in the low, medium and high, because that's where the capital formation takes place and the serviceability offers have to be very high, both on the sales side and also post order side. So, that's one part. And on the second side, we look at it from a kind of a holistic trend that these particular market segments are relevant for us for long-to-medium term. And we will stay focused on that. So ideally, it is not quarter-to-quarter because this capital formation of the size we look for and we track doesn't change quarter-to-quarter. I would say calendar year basis is a reasonable way to look at it. And also another way to look at the high, medium and the low is that these high segments are the ones which are relatively new market segments. They say like data centers started picking up in 2016 and 2017. They were next to nothing. Now it is a substantial part of our portfolio, and the rate of growth is still quite high. So, that's where they say. So, we have a bit of a matrix and more granularity to it which we track. But yes, to your question, to your answer, yearly adjustment is more relevant for it rather than quarterly adjustment.
Sir, but when we look at the number of sectors moving from low to medium, but in terms of our inflows which are not matching that thing, so hence my question was related to that.
Yes, so if you see the low segment, still they form quite a substantial percentage. I think it's almost 45%, Sridhar? (T.K. Sridhar: 45%.) 45% of the volume comes from the low market segment. So, we see that as an opportunity because those segments are actually primed to spend more in CAPEX because they haven't done it for a very long period of time. So, if you look at it from that angle, it's just a matter of time when those kick in. And when the market conditions and the confidence in the large CAPEX spender is there, then this low segment starts priming both on the OPEX and CAPEX side. So, you can just imagine that given the growth that we had of 22% CAGR in the last 5 years, how well it will play out once these low market segments or some of those segments also start joining the medium side of it.
Sir, finally, if you can give some color on this service income, because that pie has been increasing and leading to a better margin for us. So, how do we look at that service mix going ahead?
Service is almost every time between 12% to 13%, but ideally our aim is to get to 15%, but with more orders coming in, so service as a percentage looks pretty much the same, but if you look only at the growth of service and exports, they are very robust, I would say.
Sir, hi, congratulations on a decent number. My first question is given slight sluggishness in the market and the muted growth, so how are the prices for the products holding on? So, have you seen any price cut or has the competitive intensity increased?
Well, generally, on an overall basis, you are right, there is a bit of sluggishness in the marketplace, more specially on the large project side, I would say. In certain product categories, of course, there is an increased competitive intensity. Whenever there is an increased competitive intensity, you will see an effect on the prices, price realizations. But I would say that is on the minor side of the portfolio. I would say the main story is that the large projects which are being held back, they should be released in coming quarters. That's something we watch, and we are working with the clients. As far as the price adjustment, in minor product categories, there are definitely the pressures which we are seeing, mainly due to the competitive intensity as well.
Any commentary on the margin guidance? I mean, still maintain that 13% to 15% band or like how it will move now on a net margin level?
No, we have been saying that 12% to 15% is where we are talking at the PAT margins at this point of time. So, that's how it is. So, now we are reaping the benefits of the earlier quarters of good, priced orders we are getting secured at this point of time and also the leverage on the capacities which is playing out. So that's something which we will continue to watch out for.
Okay, this is the last question, sir, on export. So any benefit you are getting on export because this quarter growth has been strong and an impact of the global trade friction which is currently going on in the US? So will it likely benefit us in India because we don't have much of exposure to the US in the parent company?
Too early to say. the global landscape is under formation with too many conflicts, both on the economic trade and some kind of hot spots in the market. And all of them, at least in this week, we find some resolution is being found. US was talking to China last week in Geneva. Some positive news is coming there. Next Monday, coming Monday, Ukraine and Russia is talking to each other. Maybe a resolution comes there. And we also had, day before yesterday, the hot shooting war going on our western borders that came to a halt. So, these things had to play out and for a company like us or rather simple people like us who just look at the customers when they are going to decide orders, it is difficult to decide for how that will play out on our portfolio. But on the export side, we are allocated certain export markets. We are doing quite well there. And India as such, the way the trade system is, seems to be net positive for us, for our industries. And whatever portfolio that we are exporting, we are not seeing any kind of dampening effect. In fact, we had quite a good expansion of our export orders compared to last quarter. it was about 40% increase. So, our exports increased 40% year-on-year basis.
My first question is pertaining to exports and services. So, if I look at your trend as a percentage of contribution from exports and services, it is the remaining range bound with a range of about 10% to 14% since the last few quarters. So, how do you see a pick up happening here? Whether your install base can lead more of a big in the services business for you in the medium-to-longer term? And would there be any change in strategy from parent side as well in terms of supply dynamics so that you can have better traction on the export side?
So, a growth of 40% on export side, I believe, is quite a healthy growth. And this is something which is available. When we talk about percentages, as long as the domestic market growth is strong, then the percentages of export even after 40% growth look nominal, right? So, that's what as far as the domestic side is stronger, the percentages will continue to be playing out that way, but we are quite happy in terms of how our export markets are developing. As far as the group is concerned, yes, our prime focus is on Indian market being a multinational corporation present in India. But given the facilities here are world-class, more and more global divisions are using our base for opening new export markets. It is a gradual but very steady process so that we are able to serve both domestic as well as global markets. And our teams are doing a good job there. And we will see it will be a more steady path. But at the same time, there is a long path of continue to gain on the export markets from India.
Just a question on the stickiness of the electrification segment margins. When I look at it from a recent quarterly perspective or even from an annual perspective drawing on information from the annual report, just could you help us connect the dots in terms of while the last two quarters order inflows for this segment have sort of moderated and the base quarters are sitting with large project orders, that coupled with a higher or let's say, no deterioration or the foreign exchange used or the import content remaining more or less the same as a percentage of sales, the margins for the segments seem to be really sticky and probably even trending upwards. So, I would appreciate it if you can give us some strategic decisions that you have taken that has put electrification as a segment at these margin levels and what happens when growth resumes in order inflows? Directionally, do margins for these segments sort of trend even higher from these levels?
So as you know, Jonas, the profitability is a net result of multiple factors that flow through order margins and then how productivity measures that we do within our location and that's where a lot of investments go. So, every year our units are more productive than previous years. Plus, how we manage our supply chain, our suppliers, that's another factor. And also how we are kind of localizing continuously our portfolio. So, it's a combination effect that comes. And sometimes it is largely aided by margin realization, and at times it is realized by the supply chain realization, and sometimes this also gathered a localization and a combination of those factors. Going forward, we feel we are committed to this journey. And we do see that the volumes will continue to come. So, it means the utilization rate of our plants should remain good going forward. And also the quality of customers and the market segments that we are dealing with, they reward the people with a good portfolio, right? But at the same time, as far as the factor of pricing is concerned, it stabilizes after some time. But then we continue to use the other leverages which are available. (Kiran Dutt added) Thanks, Sanjeev. very similar to that. One point to be noted is with respect to the order inflow, if you look at it with respect to even Q4 of '24 and then Q1, we are at around 71% growth compared to that. So the order inflows are always there. And when I look at the order backlogs, the order backlogs have really increased by 36%. So, for sure, which is going to give us good visibility in terms of the revenues which are going to happen, and we are sure that that would support in terms of the profitability as well.
Got it. And if I can just squeeze in one quick one for Sridhar. So if you can help us, when we see this line item called foreign exchange used, which tantamounts to roughly 50% of sales at Rs. 60 billion odd, most of these imports can be attributed to which segments? If at all you have to put in some directional thing, not asking for exact numbers.
You know, imports will happen in all divisions, right? It's only a question of in which division it is higher, in which division it is lower. (Jonas: Yes, as the intensity is higher.) Exactly, right. So, technically what happens is in the projects division, it is slightly lesser on a direct import basis because they do more of projects, but they also draw from the motion and electrification wherever needed, who import, right? So, definitely, I would say in terms of imports could be pretty higher in robotics because they depend quite a lot on the imports from outside countries because the ecosystem for robotics in the country is yet to be developed as what is needed. And the next one is power electronics, which is the system drives and drive products, which depend quite a bit on exports, and also definitely in EL, where we have the electronics piece which is required. So overall, just to sort of sum it up for you, if you look at exports per se, I would say because the volumes are pretty much higher in EL and MO, they would do almost 70% of the imports will come only from these two segments and the balance 25%-30% come from robotics.
And the second quick one is on capacity creation. ABB has always been realistic and measured when they think of capacities, and we have seen that many times and which also helps in the time of low growth. This year and next year, anything particularly one or two items where we are thinking of adding capacity or capability? If you can be specific without going into much details, whatever is allowed and possible?
Yes, since you asked, so we will have capacity expansion, especially in the units which are relatively small in the business. So now they are coming of age. So we have to put them into the larger units because their volumes have grown, and they are demanding much more space. So there are some in Process Automation. We also see the same in the electrification on back of growth as well as on back of expanded portfolio which needs to be localized. We also see something similar in motion. And you will hear from us once we are ready for it and willing to kind of show that as an available capacity to the market. (T.K. Sridhar added) Amit, as you alluded to, definitely before we go through with our CAPEX plans, we are very measured in that to understand what capacities which we have, which we could first leverage upon and what are the other options available. And then it's a well thought-through decision before we start to invest in organic and inorganic options.
I wanted to get a sense from you across your segments of the level of sophistication of the product as you suggested on the call. I wanted to understand, A) in which segments is it driving our margins up because on a relative basis we are fairly strong? And B) from here on, have you seen the customers, internationally, which all segments can incrementally benefit as the customers further moves in this direction?
So, if you go back to the slide where we have these 18 divisions coming across 23 market segments, the margin accretion would definitely be very attractive in the first sector where we are growing faster because that's the place where technology plays a differentiating factor to quite a large extent and where the speed of execution is also important. And also new solutions are very relevant in those particular market segments. Therefore, the margins there would definitely be at this point of time attractive for the reason is because they are also starting from a lower base and trying to set up their shops in India as what we see. So, this run should come and can continue for some more time till the base expands and comes to a stabilization level. In the second category, where it is called realistic growth between 8% to 10%-12%, there is a bit of a mixed bag where you have sectors which offer a margin for the value which we deliver and some of the sectors go by tendering model which could be more competitive in nature. And while we come to the last sector, which is the low growth sector but a high volume impact there, there margin accretion comes more from the leveraging on the capacities and the delivery and the volumes what we build rather than just by ability to push prices over there. So, according to me, Aditya, all these three segments have characteristics which are quite different, right. And while the first one is very good to be in because it has the highest margin potential, but it does not have the base through which we could really drive the margin. So naturally, we need to have a good balance between all the three market segments and which give us the growth what we are in today at a pattern of 12% to 15% as what we see.