Could you elaborate how is Tata Technologies positioned in industrial and factory robotics design? What is the scope and expansion plan for industrial automation and factory robotics design at Tata Tech? Do you see any opportunities in humanoid robots? And what are the target revenues level over the medium term and current share of revenues from aerospace?
As far as industrial heavy machinery is concerned, there are 2 components to that business for us. One is commercial vehicles, and the other is off-highway products or off-road products. And as far as commercial vehicles are concerned, there are 2 things that we are very excited about. I've just referenced the acquisition by Tata Motors CV of Iveco and the support that we anticipate that we'll be able to provide for the integration of those 2 organizations and the investment that they will be making in pursuing synergies and new products. We also have been selected and confirmed as a strategic supplier to one large commercial vehicle group. And that is an accreditation and an endorsement that will provide significant demand in the coming years. As far as aerospace is concerned, I've touched on some of the tailwinds. One is the strategic relationship with Airbus. Not only are we enjoying accelerated growth at Airbus, but we're also now looking to expand into their supply chain. One of the constraints to their ability to build aircraft is the manufacturing throughput capability of their supply chain. We also penetrated the propulsion sector in North America. So again, we've been able to double our business in aerospace off a relatively small base over the last 4 years. This year, aerospace will finish close to about $40 million, and we expect the momentum that has informed the rapid growth in that sector to continue.
Coming back to the 10% sequential growth - how much was the impact of the cybersecurity incident from JLR this quarter? And would there be push-through of that revenue that is helping growth in the next quarter? Is there kind of a lumpiness of ramp-up that is helping you next quarter? Because Technology Solutions is not something which is going to drive growth in 4Q. So the auto segment has to do the real heavy lifting.
It's a fair question. We don't disclose revenues of individual customers. And so, I'm not going to confirm the specific impact of the cybersecurity hit that JLR took in Q3. But we saw the revenues that we were not able to build in October come back in November and December. And we expect those revenues to sustain in Q4. So clearly, there will be a contribution for the catch-up that, that represents. But that is not a major part of the growth that we are anticipating in Q4. It's really being driven by the deal wins that we've secured and the growing momentum that is building within a broad base of customers.
By when can we really expect these kinds of projects to contribute more than 7%, 8% or 10% of entire revenue of Tata Technologies? I'm trying to understand by what means and technology, we are able to derisk our dependency on Tata Motors and JLR. For example, if you talk anything about the BMW relationship or any such more relationship which is there in plan in Q4 or '27?
The one thing that I'm not in a position to do right now is provide you with any data about customers and our aspiration or targets for those customers. But what I can say is that the relationships with customers like VW, like Volvo, like Airbus and as you referenced, BMW, those relationships are - they represent a strategic commitment on both sides. The relationship with BMW that has supported the investment that both sides have made in the joint venture that we have here in India is a commitment that was made at the top end of that company. And because now of the important connection that we've got at the top of both organizations and by association, both groups, we are starting to win a number of direct deals. So, we are expecting to complement the JV business that we do here in India with business in Munich and also business that we win in Munich and in other parts of the BMW Enterprise, North America and China specifically, we're expecting to deliver that not just from local teams, but also from teams here in India. So the reason for citing that is just to give you some sort of complexion as to the strategic nature of these partnerships and the confidence that we have that they will continue to scale.
Question with regards to your expectations for a very strong performance in Q4. If you could help us understand how much of the strong rebound that you're expecting is driven by anchor customers? How much of it may be outside of that? The second question was for Uttam - while we've done very well to defend our margins in the narrow range, we've seen some deterioration in our debtor days. How much of that essentially could be linked to the situation at Group Company? And how should we be thinking about this evolving over a period of time?
On the debtor days' part, as we mentioned, some of the effects were temporary due to one-off issues which was there with the customers that we had. So, over a period of next 2 quarters, we anticipate that our debtor days would be closer to what we had in the first half of the year. So, it's a matter of a few quarters and most of the things should fall back in place. (Warren Harris added on Q4 mix): In terms of the mix of improvement that we are expecting in Q4, I'm not in a position to provide any specific information about any one customer. All that I can say is that it is broad-based. We certainly expect the impact that we saw at JLR to come back, and that will certainly contribute towards the growth that we are planning. But the growth is broad-based. We are not expecting it to be concentrated in any one customer or in any one group.
We started off as a company in the automotive sector and diversified to aerospace. What percentage do you feel we are reaching where we can transit to an aerospace tech company? Or do we still have time and how much time do we require?
We've been working very hard over the last 2 to 3 years to build an aerospace business that's relevant and is material in size. You might remember that 12 months ago, almost 90% of our business was automotive. And in Q3, about 80% of our business is automotive. So, the business outside of automotive - aerospace, but also industrial heavy machinery - has been growing at a much faster rate than automotive. Now we fully expect, given the green shoots of improvement that we've seen in automotive in the recent past, the automotive sector to get back to a growth cycle. So, the type of change in mix, the accelerated change in mix that we've seen over the last 12 months is unlikely to continue. Aerospace has grown, as I said, has doubled every year for the last 4 years from a relatively small base, and we expect that type of momentum to continue. So, we are very bullish about our prospects in engineering. We think that a customer base that we've got in Europe and North America represents a great deal of potential. We also think that the investment that Tata Group is making is affording a great deal of influence.
Can you explain how are you seeing the automotive business from near to medium-term perspective - the headwinds we had seen in the last 1 year with respect to tariffs or Chinese competition impacting overall spending? Are those headwinds behind us? And secondly, from the anchor client perspective, especially JLR, how are things there? Is the spending improving within that?
I've commented in the past that the automotive industry is essentially a product-led business. But over the course of the last 18 months, we've seen a slowdown in investment in products, primarily because of the uncertainty in the markets, geopolitical uncertainty and also regulatory uncertainty. We expected a relatively strong demand environment this fiscal year, but it's been turned upside down by tariffs and by some of the geopolitical influences that impacted the market. But what we're seeing in the second half of calendar year 2025 is the market conditions start to be more predictable. And that's precipitating in catch-up investment that many of our customers are making. Those customers that have sat on their hands, whilst things have been uncertain, are now looking to get back to their cycle plans and invest in what will define their competitive position in 2 to 3 years from now. One of the things that gives us confidence in the momentum behind what I've just cited is that in the third quarter, we won the first full vehicle program that we, as an organization, have won in the last 18 months. And so, we believe that that's proof positive that the green shoots are now starting to translate into program awards that are material and will extend over multiple years. Now in terms of your second question, JLR and Tata Motors. We're very, very excited by the market position that both customers find themselves in. Tata Motors has had an incredible run over the last 5 years. JLR has 2 challenges. One, to continue to invest in products that will mitigate the drop in demand that they've seen in China. They also have publicly stated the need for them to digitize their enterprise and to replace an awful lot of legacy systems. Both of those vectors will represent growth opportunities for Tata Technologies.
Just a follow-up on JLR as well as the overall auto spending. In the near term, the 10% kind of a Q-o-Q growth which you're guiding to, is that a broad-based kind of growth or is it specific to any deal which is ramping up within auto or aero? And for FY '27, do you expect your top 5 to top 10 clients within auto to recover the spending? Or is it mainly linked to the anchor clients?
In terms of our growth expectations for Q4, it's relatively broad. And one of the things that I positioned in my opening narrative was over the last 12 months, we've spent a lot of time looking to diversify our portfolio, particularly as it pertains to embedded and software. We've looked to diversify our dependence in terms of automotive by investing in aerospace and industrial heavy machinery. And we've also looked to protect customer relationships, but to ensure that our customer pyramid is much broader. And we are expecting the changes and the investments that we've made in those areas to inform growth that is not only material in terms of quantum but is also much healthier and much more diverse than perhaps we've had in the past. So that's a long-winded way of positioning that the growth that we are anticipating Q4 and next year is not specific to any single program. It is very diverse, and therefore, the mix is very healthy.
Just the last question in terms of the geography mix within U.S. auto as well as European auto, are you seeing recovery in both or is there any divergence?
We are seeing, again, broad improvement in demand in the demand environment across different geographies. So, in automotive, I think almost everybody outside of China has been sitting on their hands and waiting for clarity in terms of regulation. And I think now that we've got it, everybody and specifically Europe and North America are recommitting themselves to investments in new products, again, that will define their competitive position in 3 and 4 years' time. And that's what we are intersecting with. That's what's informing the improvement in our order book. That's what's informing the improvement that we're seeing in our pipeline.
How Tata Tech is seeing demerger of Tata Motors? And secondly, the defense spending of our country is increasing. So, is there any scope of getting clients or projects in defense?
As far as the CV and PV split is concerned, you'll not be surprised to hear that we were very instrumental in enabling the 2 organizations to separate. We've been responsible at Tata Motors for a lot of their enterprise applications. And we did much of the work to enable both companies to stand alone and manage their operations independently. The prospects for both CV and PV are strong. I think on the CV side of things, that will be reinforced by the impending acquisition of Iveco. And so, we are very excited about being able to partner with both Tata Motors CV and PV. So, the impact for us, we expect to be accretive and positive. As far as defense is concerned, we expect to benefit from this in 2 ways. There will be opportunities, regional opportunities to support the defense spending in India, in Europe and in the United States. And one of the things that differentiates Tata Technologies is that we are not an India-out company. And so, we have a critical mass of capability locally in the countries that we serve, and that allows us to be compliant as far as defense programs are concerned. And so, as defense spending ramps, we expect to participate in that. But indirectly, the investment in defense is likely to take away capability, particularly from the commercial aerospace industry. And the backfill opportunity that, that represents is another growth vector that we're excited about as far as the aerospace business is concerned.
I'm trying to understand the 10% plus kind of a growth for the next quarter, trying to break it down across segments. The product business has grown at such a strong pace this quarter - it could see a seasonal decline next quarter. And despite that, we are guiding for 10% plus. And we are also talking about gradual recovery. How are you seeing growth across different segments for 4Q?
We will likely see from a seasonal perspective, a plateauing to a decline of products - of product revenue in the fourth quarter. But given the pause that we saw in education in Q3 and our expectations that that will bounce back, our Tech Solutions revenue will grow in the fourth quarter at an aggregate level. So, we do not see any decline or any tapering of that particular business. As far as the services business is concerned, we have continued to build in Q2 and Q3, our order book. So, we've got the contribution of the deals that we have signed. We've also got the contribution, the full quarter contribution of the ES-Tec acquisition. And so, we expect more than 10% growth next year, and that will roughly be split between the organic growth that we are anticipating and the contribution that ES-Tec will make to our services mix.
Just a clarification - so the 10% for FY '27 is including ES-Tec, right?
Well, the 10% that I referred to is Q4. And so, this is sequential growth. What we are committing to at this stage is double-digit growth for FY '27, but there's still work that we need to do to be able to confirm a business plan that will define targets for Q1, Q2, Q3 and Q4.
Would it be fair to say that we are still in the early stages of this recovery?
I think clearly, we're in the early stages of the industry recovery. But I think one of the things, again, that informs our confidence and our willingness to share the guidance that we have today is the order book. We're very confident in the numbers that we've shared and the expectations that we've got for both top line and margin improvement.
My final question is regarding the FY '27 double digit. Is that organic? Or is that inclusive of ES-Tec?
That is organic.
Just a broad question around the spending areas within the automotive ER&D. We are seeing huge write-offs by Ford and General Motors on their EV investments. So overall, how is the outlook on the electrification theme? And if electrification is not a key spending area of OEMs, what are the other key areas where they are spending big? And I'd also love to hear your thoughts on the SDV program?
The answer to that question is geography specific. We have seen in North America, given the changes in government and by association regulation. We've seen the pendulum swing move from EVs back to internal combustion engines. And the investments that are being made by the Big 3 now are largely in conventional powertrain. And the good news from a Tata Technologies perspective is that we're relatively agnostic in terms of propulsion choices. So, whether a customer is investing in EV, whether they're investing in plug-in hybrids, whether they're investing in ICE, we are in a position to provide support. I think Europe is somewhat mixed. A couple of years ago, Europe was very much all in on EVs. And so specifically, the German OEMs were leading that particular change. I think we've seen some rebalancing of their product plans. But I think they very firmly believe in an all-electric future, and that's continuing to inform where they're putting their investment dollars. And I think in China, specifically, I think the horse has bolted. I think that, that market has already pivoted towards EVs. Here in India, EV penetration rates have been encouraged by the investments that the government has provided. But I think one thing that is a constant is the commitment to SDVs regardless of the propulsion system, the investment in the intelligence that will inform the driver and the customer experience in the future. That is something that continues to be a priority for every single OEM. And the growth that we've seen in embedded and in software is a testament to that.
Just the last question on FY '27 double-digit growth outlook. So that's completely organic is what you are saying? And is there any contribution of ES-Tec will be above that?
That is completely organic, yes. It will [be above that].
My question is with respect to a few of the non-captive contracts such as Volvo or Airbus. Are these contracts for the fixed state of jobs for certain years or there is possibility of revenue ramp-up? And my second question is do we have more such partnerships in plan for Q4 FY '26 or '27?
The relationships with Volvo and Airbus are underpinned by strategic commitments that both customers have made to us. Our participation in the EMES3 program in Airbus is a very exclusive endorsement that Airbus have given to 17 engineering services organizations that compete for $1 billion of outsourced spend every year. We are relatively new to that program, but I think we've demonstrated our capabilities and credentials in the last 3 to 4 years. And because of that and also because of Airbus' commitment to India, we expect the momentum and the growth rates that we have supported in the recent past to continue. Volvo has gone through a vendor consolidation exercise. They've now endorsed a number of strategic suppliers. We were very fortunate and very gratified to be part of the strategic supplier list, and we've started to see improvement in growth rates as a result of that in the second half of the last calendar year. The importance now of the relationship we've got with Volkswagen - ES-Tec brings in a very sizable and strategic relationship with VW. VW is the largest ER&D spender in the automotive sector. And right now, ES-Tec is very focused on a single domain, which is SDV and embedded electronics. We have the opportunity to take our entire portfolio to Volkswagen. So we certainly expect these relationships to be an important part of the growth that we are planning for the company in the future.